Comments on: Help needed with densities of hydrocolloids http://blog.khymos.org/2008/04/30/help-needed-with-densities-of-hydrocolloids/ - dedicated to molecular gastronomy Thu, 16 Oct 2008 01:00:07 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5 By: Person http://blog.khymos.org/2008/04/30/help-needed-with-densities-of-hydrocolloids/#comment-95636 Person Fri, 30 May 2008 22:22:14 +0000 http://blog.khymos.org/?p=414#comment-95636 Martin: I got a KitchenAid immersion blender ("Empire Red" in color I'll have you know) and it works perfectly for this purpose. It doesn't aerate the mixture nearly as much as I had feared - the concoction is ready to consume immediately. I think I'm gonna be having a lot of smoothies this summer! Cheers mate, thanks for the help - Martin: I got a KitchenAid immersion blender (”Empire Red” in color I’ll have you know) and it works perfectly for this purpose. It doesn’t aerate the mixture nearly as much as I had feared - the concoction is ready to consume immediately. I think I’m gonna be having a lot of smoothies this summer!

Cheers mate, thanks for the help -

]]> By: Martin Lersch http://blog.khymos.org/2008/04/30/help-needed-with-densities-of-hydrocolloids/#comment-93782 Martin Lersch Tue, 20 May 2008 23:12:25 +0000 http://blog.khymos.org/?p=414#comment-93782 Use an immersion blender. This will incorporate air, so do this the day before you need the mixture so that the bubbles can escape. Alternatively you can grind the powdered spirulina with approximately 3-5x the amount of sugar. This will also help dispersion. Use an immersion blender. This will incorporate air, so do this the day before you need the mixture so that the bubbles can escape. Alternatively you can grind the powdered spirulina with approximately 3-5x the amount of sugar. This will also help dispersion.

]]> By: Person http://blog.khymos.org/2008/04/30/help-needed-with-densities-of-hydrocolloids/#comment-93549 Person Tue, 20 May 2008 01:21:37 +0000 http://blog.khymos.org/?p=414#comment-93549 I have an at least tenuously-related question, if anyone feels like helping a brother out. I want to dissolve a teaspoon of powdered spirulina (basically, dessicated blue-green algae) in a glass of apple juice. The powder has a terrific tendency to clump. If you agitate the mixture, it froths, which is bad. Is there some type of neutral emulsifying substance I can add to this to make the powder dissolve evenly? I have an at least tenuously-related question, if anyone feels like helping a brother out. I want to dissolve a teaspoon of powdered spirulina (basically, dessicated blue-green algae) in a glass of apple juice. The powder has a terrific tendency to clump. If you agitate the mixture, it froths, which is bad. Is there some type of neutral emulsifying substance I can add to this to make the powder dissolve evenly?

]]> By: Martin Lersch http://blog.khymos.org/2008/04/30/help-needed-with-densities-of-hydrocolloids/#comment-93455 Martin Lersch Mon, 19 May 2008 12:48:21 +0000 http://blog.khymos.org/?p=414#comment-93455 With normal cornstarch you have to heat the mixture for it to thicken. With normal cornstarch you have to heat the mixture for it to thicken.

]]> By: kirsten http://blog.khymos.org/2008/04/30/help-needed-with-densities-of-hydrocolloids/#comment-93427 kirsten Sun, 18 May 2008 23:44:25 +0000 http://blog.khymos.org/?p=414#comment-93427 Yes, I use a full 15ml tablespoon. The directions basically say to stir the starch into the fruit/sugar mixture and pour it into the prepared pastry crust. Thanks for your reply. Yes, I use a full 15ml tablespoon. The directions basically say to stir the starch into the fruit/sugar mixture and pour it into the prepared pastry crust.

Thanks for your reply.

]]> By: Martin Lersch http://blog.khymos.org/2008/04/30/help-needed-with-densities-of-hydrocolloids/#comment-93424 Martin Lersch Sun, 18 May 2008 23:10:37 +0000 http://blog.khymos.org/?p=414#comment-93424 Yes they are. Are you using a full size measuring spoon holding 15 mL? Do you follow the instructions for dispersion and hydration? Yes they are. Are you using a full size measuring spoon holding 15 mL? Do you follow the instructions for dispersion and hydration?

]]> By: kirsten http://blog.khymos.org/2008/04/30/help-needed-with-densities-of-hydrocolloids/#comment-93331 kirsten Sat, 17 May 2008 18:39:51 +0000 http://blog.khymos.org/?p=414#comment-93331 Aren't starch solutions hydrocolloids as well? I am asking from a purely practical reason, because I am having troubles with my fruit pies being too runny. Even a tablespoon of corn or tapioca starch doesn't help Aren’t starch solutions hydrocolloids as well? I am asking from a purely practical reason, because I am having troubles with my fruit pies being too runny. Even a tablespoon of corn or tapioca starch doesn’t help

]]> By: Martin Lersch http://blog.khymos.org/2008/04/30/help-needed-with-densities-of-hydrocolloids/#comment-92978 Martin Lersch Fri, 16 May 2008 12:54:33 +0000 http://blog.khymos.org/?p=414#comment-92978 novalis: Thanks - using the dipping+tapping and dipping+leveling data (which are closest to what I did), I get an average density of 0.68 g/mL for pectin. novalis: Thanks - using the dipping+tapping and dipping+leveling data (which are closest to what I did), I get an average density of 0.68 g/mL for pectin.

]]> By: novalis http://blog.khymos.org/2008/04/30/help-needed-with-densities-of-hydrocolloids/#comment-92447 novalis Wed, 14 May 2008 20:39:50 +0000 http://blog.khymos.org/?p=414#comment-92447 I decided to try a different method, because I think that with smaller amounts of hydrocolloids, people will use smaller measures than 10ml. NH pectin, LM104AS I first tried a "teaspoon", which claimed to be 5 ml. It held 4.68 gm of water when the water was as close to flat as I could make it, or 5 gm even when the water was beaded up over the top (totally full). I dipped it into my bag of pectin and packed against the side of the bag until flat, and got the following measures: 3.53 3.66 3.75 I also tried dipping and tapping until approximately flat 3.33 3.25 3.29 And dipping, and leveling with a straight-edge 3.03 2.99 3.23 (perhaps this one was more compacted to start?) I also tried with a "1/4 tsp" measure, which held 1.25 ml of water when as flat as I could get it. I only tried the dip-and-mash method: 0.95 1.00 0.91 I decided to try a different method, because I think that with smaller amounts of hydrocolloids, people will use smaller measures than 10ml.

NH pectin, LM104AS
I first tried a “teaspoon”, which claimed to be 5 ml. It held 4.68 gm of water when the water was as close to flat as I could make it, or 5 gm even when the water was beaded up over the top (totally full).

I dipped it into my bag of pectin and packed against the side of the bag until flat, and got the following measures:
3.53
3.66
3.75

I also tried dipping and tapping until approximately flat
3.33
3.25
3.29

And dipping, and leveling with a straight-edge
3.03
2.99
3.23 (perhaps this one was more compacted to start?)

I also tried with a “1/4 tsp” measure, which held 1.25 ml of water when as flat as I could get it. I only tried the dip-and-mash method:

0.95
1.00
0.91

]]> By: sygyzy http://blog.khymos.org/2008/04/30/help-needed-with-densities-of-hydrocolloids/#comment-92123 sygyzy Tue, 13 May 2008 07:20:24 +0000 http://blog.khymos.org/?p=414#comment-92123 I have plenty of hydrocolloids and I'd love to help you but I don't want to spin my wheels. Can you figure out some sort of shared document or update the post to show what you already have and what you may need? The other barrier is having to deal with fine powder/dust. Moving that amount to and from containers/bags is just going to be messy. I have plenty of hydrocolloids and I’d love to help you but I don’t want to spin my wheels. Can you figure out some sort of shared document or update the post to show what you already have and what you may need? The other barrier is having to deal with fine powder/dust. Moving that amount to and from containers/bags is just going to be messy.

]]> By: Martin Lersch http://blog.khymos.org/2008/04/30/help-needed-with-densities-of-hydrocolloids/#comment-91871 Martin Lersch Mon, 12 May 2008 08:22:52 +0000 http://blog.khymos.org/?p=414#comment-91871 Yes - I certainly agree with you! The best way to measure is by weighing accurately. And density measurements of powders is difficult and has poor reproducibility. But as I stated in the post, there are a couple of reasons why I still want to record (approximate) densities: 1. Several recipes I find state the amount of hydrocolloid used in teaspoons or tablespoons (about 5 and 15 mL respectively). In order to calculate the percentage used I need to know an approximate density. 2. For some kitchen applications (perhaps more in a home kitchen than in a restaurant kitchen) it would be nice just to have a rough idea of the density. I store my accurate balance in it's original box to protect it from shocks, and some times it would be nice to be able to add, lets say 0.25 mL of xanthan with a measuring spoon and know approximately how much I actually added. 3. It would also be nice to know to what extent the particle size and brand will influence the density. Unfortunately there hasn't been much response to my call for help, but I hope some of you can take the time to do some measurements :) Yes - I certainly agree with you! The best way to measure is by weighing accurately. And density measurements of powders is difficult and has poor reproducibility.

But as I stated in the post, there are a couple of reasons why I still want to record (approximate) densities:

1. Several recipes I find state the amount of hydrocolloid used in teaspoons or tablespoons (about 5 and 15 mL respectively). In order to calculate the percentage used I need to know an approximate density.

2. For some kitchen applications (perhaps more in a home kitchen than in a restaurant kitchen) it would be nice just to have a rough idea of the density. I store my accurate balance in it’s original box to protect it from shocks, and some times it would be nice to be able to add, lets say 0.25 mL of xanthan with a measuring spoon and know approximately how much I actually added.

3. It would also be nice to know to what extent the particle size and brand will influence the density.

Unfortunately there hasn’t been much response to my call for help, but I hope some of you can take the time to do some measurements :)

]]> By: Robert Paulson http://blog.khymos.org/2008/04/30/help-needed-with-densities-of-hydrocolloids/#comment-91822 Robert Paulson Mon, 12 May 2008 03:46:32 +0000 http://blog.khymos.org/?p=414#comment-91822 There are several problems with measuring density of solid materials. Firstly, packing and air bubbles. Just pressing down firmly is not going to be accurate enough, and how do you do so consistently? Tapping can help, but in a reproducible way? Second, contaminents. Water, salts, buffers can all dilute the solid and alter mixing. You would need to determine values from different sources. Third, you did not mention repeating the experiment. You should take at least 3, preferably 5, measurements. Weigh, empty and refill container, reweigh. There are several problems with measuring density of solid materials.

Firstly, packing and air bubbles. Just pressing down firmly is not going to be accurate enough, and how do you do so consistently? Tapping can help, but in a reproducible way?

Second, contaminents. Water, salts, buffers can all dilute the solid and alter mixing. You would need to determine values from different sources.

Third, you did not mention repeating the experiment. You should take at least 3, preferably 5, measurements. Weigh, empty and refill container, reweigh.

]]> By: Larry Coulson http://blog.khymos.org/2008/04/30/help-needed-with-densities-of-hydrocolloids/#comment-88434 Larry Coulson Thu, 01 May 2008 19:09:22 +0000 http://blog.khymos.org/?p=414#comment-88434 High resolution (.002 gm) digital scales are now inexpensive ($65). http://preview.tinyurl.com/6kgo95 Medium resolution scales (.01 gm) are even cheaper ($45). http://www.canadianweigh.com/scales/mxt-series-scales Volume measurements always have the problem of how much the powder has packed down. One must first sift the powder then extract the needed volume. I once bought several teaspoons made by different manufactures and the variation in their volume was enormous when I tested them measuring table salt and a high resolution digital scale. High resolution (.002 gm) digital scales are now inexpensive ($65).
http://preview.tinyurl.com/6kgo95

Medium resolution scales (.01 gm) are even cheaper ($45).
http://www.canadianweigh.com/scales/mxt-series-scales

Volume measurements always have the problem of how much the powder has packed down. One must first sift the powder then extract the needed volume. I once bought several teaspoons made by different manufactures and the variation in their volume was enormous when I tested them measuring table salt and a high resolution digital scale.

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