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	<title>Comments on: Sourdough work in progress (part I)</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blog.khymos.org/2009/05/21/sourdough-work-in-progress-part-i/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blog.khymos.org/2009/05/21/sourdough-work-in-progress-part-i/</link>
	<description>- dedicated to molecular gastronomy</description>
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		<title>By: Audrey</title>
		<link>http://blog.khymos.org/2009/05/21/sourdough-work-in-progress-part-i/comment-page-1/#comment-159739</link>
		<dc:creator>Audrey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Aug 2009 02:23:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.khymos.org/?p=1590#comment-159739</guid>
		<description>Hi, 
Just wanted to let you know if you did not already find some unsulfured dried apricots. That I purchased this brand;
 &quot;Good Sense&quot; company.  http://www.goodsensesnacks.com/organic-nutrifacts/nutrifacts-org-4.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi,<br />
Just wanted to let you know if you did not already find some unsulfured dried apricots. That I purchased this brand;<br />
 &#8220;Good Sense&#8221; company.  <a href="http://www.goodsensesnacks.com/organic-nutrifacts/nutrifacts-org-4.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.goodsensesnacks.com/organic-nutrifacts/nutrifacts-org-4.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Jim Jozwiak</title>
		<link>http://blog.khymos.org/2009/05/21/sourdough-work-in-progress-part-i/comment-page-1/#comment-156599</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Jozwiak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jul 2009 19:41:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.khymos.org/?p=1590#comment-156599</guid>
		<description>Martin,

My experience is that what you are trying to do when you make a sourdough starter is simply create a little mini-ecology that exactly suits you, your kitchen, your flour, etc.  Learn the whole process at room temperature.  Don&#039;t worry about throwing away flour until you understand the process--when you understand the process then you can optimize it, and if you bake bread daily, you will not throw away anything. Keep the starter in a transparent or translucent semi-cylyndrical cup that is twice as big as how much starter you have so you can see at a glance the timing of its activity.  Make the starter be 80% hydration so it is more like a dough.  Always refeed every 24 hours without fail.  Your new little mini-ecology will stabilize in only a week or so, and when you see it rise you will be assured of its leavening power.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Martin,</p>
<p>My experience is that what you are trying to do when you make a sourdough starter is simply create a little mini-ecology that exactly suits you, your kitchen, your flour, etc.  Learn the whole process at room temperature.  Don&#8217;t worry about throwing away flour until you understand the process&#8211;when you understand the process then you can optimize it, and if you bake bread daily, you will not throw away anything. Keep the starter in a transparent or translucent semi-cylyndrical cup that is twice as big as how much starter you have so you can see at a glance the timing of its activity.  Make the starter be 80% hydration so it is more like a dough.  Always refeed every 24 hours without fail.  Your new little mini-ecology will stabilize in only a week or so, and when you see it rise you will be assured of its leavening power.</p>
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		<title>By: Andreas</title>
		<link>http://blog.khymos.org/2009/05/21/sourdough-work-in-progress-part-i/comment-page-1/#comment-155622</link>
		<dc:creator>Andreas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jul 2009 16:20:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.khymos.org/?p=1590#comment-155622</guid>
		<description>Two things that worked for me (learned the hard way):

- Temperature control is everything: I now use an Auber that I normally use for sous-vide, just with different settings and a lightbulb in my baking oven. I use this setup for  both the refreshening of the starter (ca. 8 hours or whenever I get to it, no stirring necessary) and the spring of the bread (1-4 hours). I keep the temperature at 29 C.
(Sourdough temp control was actually the selling point for the Auber as opposed to an immersion bath (well, together with the price tag...))

- I started the thing from wheat and water, nothing else. The &quot;older&quot; (more generations), the better it gets. Simple as that, no need for measures like grapes, apricots, or anything else.

Personal opinion from here on: Buying a starter might be good to get you going right away, without the patience necessary to start your own and go trough a couple of generations. But later on, as you are not working in a clean room, wild yeast from the area where you do your work will start to get into your starter. They might be suppressed by the present population or take your starter over or something in between might happen. Basic point is, you will never know anyway...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Two things that worked for me (learned the hard way):</p>
<p>- Temperature control is everything: I now use an Auber that I normally use for sous-vide, just with different settings and a lightbulb in my baking oven. I use this setup for  both the refreshening of the starter (ca. 8 hours or whenever I get to it, no stirring necessary) and the spring of the bread (1-4 hours). I keep the temperature at 29 C.<br />
(Sourdough temp control was actually the selling point for the Auber as opposed to an immersion bath (well, together with the price tag&#8230;))</p>
<p>- I started the thing from wheat and water, nothing else. The &#8220;older&#8221; (more generations), the better it gets. Simple as that, no need for measures like grapes, apricots, or anything else.</p>
<p>Personal opinion from here on: Buying a starter might be good to get you going right away, without the patience necessary to start your own and go trough a couple of generations. But later on, as you are not working in a clean room, wild yeast from the area where you do your work will start to get into your starter. They might be suppressed by the present population or take your starter over or something in between might happen. Basic point is, you will never know anyway&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Martin Lersch</title>
		<link>http://blog.khymos.org/2009/05/21/sourdough-work-in-progress-part-i/comment-page-1/#comment-155107</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin Lersch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Jul 2009 18:52:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.khymos.org/?p=1590#comment-155107</guid>
		<description>Thanks for all the tips! One thing I&#039;m thinking about in particular now is that yeast requires oxygen to multiply and grow whereas the lactic acid producing bacteria do not. So if left alone unstirred there&#039;ll be plenty of sourness, but not much bubbling activity. This suggests to me that one needs to stir sour dough vigoursly to help the yeast multiply.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for all the tips! One thing I&#8217;m thinking about in particular now is that yeast requires oxygen to multiply and grow whereas the lactic acid producing bacteria do not. So if left alone unstirred there&#8217;ll be plenty of sourness, but not much bubbling activity. This suggests to me that one needs to stir sour dough vigoursly to help the yeast multiply.</p>
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		<title>By: Brett from Canada</title>
		<link>http://blog.khymos.org/2009/05/21/sourdough-work-in-progress-part-i/comment-page-1/#comment-153286</link>
		<dc:creator>Brett from Canada</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jul 2009 16:19:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.khymos.org/?p=1590#comment-153286</guid>
		<description>@Dennis:

a) Chorinated (or chloraminated) water isn&#039;t necessarily a problem.  I feed my starter on tap water and it triples in eight hours when fed.

b) Yeast *is* an &quot;air-breathing intruder&quot;. :)

As for methods, I really find all this complication baffling.  I&#039;ve twice used a straight water/flour method documented here:

http://www.wildyeastblog.com/2007/07/13/raising-a-starter/

Both times, I&#039;ve cultured extremely successful starters with this method, the first time in about nine days, and the second time in just five.  All this business with fruit, yogurt, and so forth is, at least in my experience, completely unnecessary.  Plain whole wheat flour, whole rye flour, and water will yield a perfectly serviceable starter (which you can then feed with the same ingredients).  All it takes is patience and a little care.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Dennis:</p>
<p>a) Chorinated (or chloraminated) water isn&#8217;t necessarily a problem.  I feed my starter on tap water and it triples in eight hours when fed.</p>
<p>b) Yeast *is* an &#8220;air-breathing intruder&#8221;. <img src='http://blog.khymos.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>As for methods, I really find all this complication baffling.  I&#8217;ve twice used a straight water/flour method documented here:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.wildyeastblog.com/2007/07/13/raising-a-starter/" rel="nofollow">http://www.wildyeastblog.com/2007/07/13/raising-a-starter/</a></p>
<p>Both times, I&#8217;ve cultured extremely successful starters with this method, the first time in about nine days, and the second time in just five.  All this business with fruit, yogurt, and so forth is, at least in my experience, completely unnecessary.  Plain whole wheat flour, whole rye flour, and water will yield a perfectly serviceable starter (which you can then feed with the same ingredients).  All it takes is patience and a little care.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrea zanella</title>
		<link>http://blog.khymos.org/2009/05/21/sourdough-work-in-progress-part-i/comment-page-1/#comment-149663</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrea zanella</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 05:05:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.khymos.org/?p=1590#comment-149663</guid>
		<description>Hope You can traslate this
E&#039; detto anche lievito acido, o pasta madre, o pasta acida. per la produzione di lievito naturale. Il lievito prodotto con questo metodo ha la consistenza di una pastella. 
Tempo di preparazione e cottura: 10 min più 3-5 giorni per la fermentazione
Ingredienti 10 acini di uva passa250 ml di acqua150 g farina (meglio se integrale)
In una ciotolina mettere l&#039;uva passa e l&#039;acqua e lasciarla così per 3 giorni. Lasciarla scoperta e al riparo dalle correnti d&#039;aria.
Trascorsi tre giorni, l&#039;acqua sarà diventata torbida e giallina con una patina in superficie.
Filtrarla, prelevarne circa 150 g e versarla in un barattolo piuttosto grande e aggiungere la farina.
Mescolare bene e coprire parzialmente con un coperchio (in modo che l&#039;aria possa entrare), e mettere il contenitore in luogo riparato. Entro 48 ore (o prima, a seconda della temperatura ambiente) il composto si gonfierà riempiendosi di bolle.
Questo è segno che il lievito &quot;è nato&quot;!A questo punto si può cominciare ad usare. 
Il lievito va conservato nel barattolo, parzialmente coperto, a temperatura ambiente e &quot;rinfrescato&quot; ogni due giorni. Si consiglia di conservarne una quantità pari a circa 100-150 grammi.
Per i primi 3-4 giorni si consiglia, partendo da una quantità di lievito pari a circa 150 g, di rinfrescarlo con 100 g di acqua e 100 g di farina
Le operazioni di rinfresco.

Travasare il lievito in un barattolo pulito ed aggiungere acqua e farina in pari quantità. In particolare:

Rinfresco per produrre il pane: per 500 g di farina occorrono 150 g di lievito attivo.
Quindi aggiungere al lievito 75 g di acqua e 75 g di farina e mescolare bene. In un paio d&#039;ore il volume del lievito raddoppierà (a temperatura di circa 26 gradi). Prelevare i 150 g necessari per il pane e conservare il resto.

Rinfresco per conservare: aggiungere 20-30 g di farina e la stessa quantità di acqua. Mescolare e conservare.

Regola fondamentale
Quando si decide di intraprendere l&#039;avventura lievito naturale, non bisogna avere fretta!!!
E&#039; necessaria molta cura e molta pazienza.
Se il lievito non appare abbastanza &quot;vispo&quot; non decretarne subito la &quot;morte&quot;, ma provare a ridargli forza mediante diversi rinfreschi successivi, finché non raddoppia di volume in 2-3 ore.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hope You can traslate this<br />
E&#8217; detto anche lievito acido, o pasta madre, o pasta acida. per la produzione di lievito naturale. Il lievito prodotto con questo metodo ha la consistenza di una pastella.<br />
Tempo di preparazione e cottura: 10 min più 3-5 giorni per la fermentazione<br />
Ingredienti 10 acini di uva passa250 ml di acqua150 g farina (meglio se integrale)<br />
In una ciotolina mettere l&#8217;uva passa e l&#8217;acqua e lasciarla così per 3 giorni. Lasciarla scoperta e al riparo dalle correnti d&#8217;aria.<br />
Trascorsi tre giorni, l&#8217;acqua sarà diventata torbida e giallina con una patina in superficie.<br />
Filtrarla, prelevarne circa 150 g e versarla in un barattolo piuttosto grande e aggiungere la farina.<br />
Mescolare bene e coprire parzialmente con un coperchio (in modo che l&#8217;aria possa entrare), e mettere il contenitore in luogo riparato. Entro 48 ore (o prima, a seconda della temperatura ambiente) il composto si gonfierà riempiendosi di bolle.<br />
Questo è segno che il lievito &#8220;è nato&#8221;!A questo punto si può cominciare ad usare.<br />
Il lievito va conservato nel barattolo, parzialmente coperto, a temperatura ambiente e &#8220;rinfrescato&#8221; ogni due giorni. Si consiglia di conservarne una quantità pari a circa 100-150 grammi.<br />
Per i primi 3-4 giorni si consiglia, partendo da una quantità di lievito pari a circa 150 g, di rinfrescarlo con 100 g di acqua e 100 g di farina<br />
Le operazioni di rinfresco.</p>
<p>Travasare il lievito in un barattolo pulito ed aggiungere acqua e farina in pari quantità. In particolare:</p>
<p>Rinfresco per produrre il pane: per 500 g di farina occorrono 150 g di lievito attivo.<br />
Quindi aggiungere al lievito 75 g di acqua e 75 g di farina e mescolare bene. In un paio d&#8217;ore il volume del lievito raddoppierà (a temperatura di circa 26 gradi). Prelevare i 150 g necessari per il pane e conservare il resto.</p>
<p>Rinfresco per conservare: aggiungere 20-30 g di farina e la stessa quantità di acqua. Mescolare e conservare.</p>
<p>Regola fondamentale<br />
Quando si decide di intraprendere l&#8217;avventura lievito naturale, non bisogna avere fretta!!!<br />
E&#8217; necessaria molta cura e molta pazienza.<br />
Se il lievito non appare abbastanza &#8220;vispo&#8221; non decretarne subito la &#8220;morte&#8221;, ma provare a ridargli forza mediante diversi rinfreschi successivi, finché non raddoppia di volume in 2-3 ore.</p>
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		<title>By: Dennis Quigley</title>
		<link>http://blog.khymos.org/2009/05/21/sourdough-work-in-progress-part-i/comment-page-1/#comment-149314</link>
		<dc:creator>Dennis Quigley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 04:18:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.khymos.org/?p=1590#comment-149314</guid>
		<description>Martin,
A few things to consider:
Water - Chlorination, particularly the more recently introduced bromine compound [this cannot be boiled or evaporated off as the earlier chlorine form could], will greatly suppress sourdough activity.  I learned this the hard way, very frustrating.

Flour - I have found unbleached, stone ground [less heat during milling] wheat to be better than bleached.  The stone ground whole wheat becomes active somewhat faster than white flour in my experience; I assume the bran preserves the stowaway yeast more effectively.

Yogurt - I now use a method developed about thirty years ago by the Sunset Magazine kitchens using a few tablespoons of plain yogurt [my scientific selection of brand involves reading the ingredients label and choosing the one with the greatest number of different strains of lactobacilli] mixed with your chosen flour and sufficient milk to form a batter [thick or thin as you choose].  Initial temperatures ranging from 70 F to 90 F are ideal [I have found switching on my incandescent oven light will raise the temperature of my electric oven to ~80 - 85 F -- do not turn the oven on --].  Once active, the sourdough starter is thereafter maintained with flour and fresh milk [avoiding any chlorine issues; dry milk will work, but then distilled water is required], and stored in the refrigerator during periods of infrequent use.  Sunset Magazine goes into considerably greater detail in at least two magazine articles published over the years [these were also reprinted in at least one of their annual recipe books].  You may also be able to find something on their website [www.sunset.com].

I find this starter to be extremely stable and robust.  Whichever strains can live in harsher more acidic environs win out; I just let the little beasties work out their own modus vivendi, and the CO2 layer is proof against any air-breathing intruders.

Cheers,
Dennis</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Martin,<br />
A few things to consider:<br />
Water &#8211; Chlorination, particularly the more recently introduced bromine compound [this cannot be boiled or evaporated off as the earlier chlorine form could], will greatly suppress sourdough activity.  I learned this the hard way, very frustrating.</p>
<p>Flour &#8211; I have found unbleached, stone ground [less heat during milling] wheat to be better than bleached.  The stone ground whole wheat becomes active somewhat faster than white flour in my experience; I assume the bran preserves the stowaway yeast more effectively.</p>
<p>Yogurt &#8211; I now use a method developed about thirty years ago by the Sunset Magazine kitchens using a few tablespoons of plain yogurt [my scientific selection of brand involves reading the ingredients label and choosing the one with the greatest number of different strains of lactobacilli] mixed with your chosen flour and sufficient milk to form a batter [thick or thin as you choose].  Initial temperatures ranging from 70 F to 90 F are ideal [I have found switching on my incandescent oven light will raise the temperature of my electric oven to ~80 - 85 F -- do not turn the oven on --].  Once active, the sourdough starter is thereafter maintained with flour and fresh milk [avoiding any chlorine issues; dry milk will work, but then distilled water is required], and stored in the refrigerator during periods of infrequent use.  Sunset Magazine goes into considerably greater detail in at least two magazine articles published over the years [these were also reprinted in at least one of their annual recipe books].  You may also be able to find something on their website [www.sunset.com].</p>
<p>I find this starter to be extremely stable and robust.  Whichever strains can live in harsher more acidic environs win out; I just let the little beasties work out their own modus vivendi, and the CO2 layer is proof against any air-breathing intruders.</p>
<p>Cheers,<br />
Dennis</p>
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		<title>By: Quinn Zweigle</title>
		<link>http://blog.khymos.org/2009/05/21/sourdough-work-in-progress-part-i/comment-page-1/#comment-146616</link>
		<dc:creator>Quinn Zweigle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 18:51:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.khymos.org/?p=1590#comment-146616</guid>
		<description>If your looking for good apricots without the sulfur, try Newmans Own Organic Apricots. They are California Apricots that have been Retorted after drying and washing. The color will be that of an undesireable brown, but will serve your needs well for sourdough.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If your looking for good apricots without the sulfur, try Newmans Own Organic Apricots. They are California Apricots that have been Retorted after drying and washing. The color will be that of an undesireable brown, but will serve your needs well for sourdough.</p>
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		<title>By: Walter Aprile</title>
		<link>http://blog.khymos.org/2009/05/21/sourdough-work-in-progress-part-i/comment-page-1/#comment-146297</link>
		<dc:creator>Walter Aprile</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Jun 2009 22:51:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.khymos.org/?p=1590#comment-146297</guid>
		<description>My sourdough starter (culture? pet? symbiosis? you decide!) is based on a cup of starter that a friend of mine recently gave me. She uses a 1:1 flour to water ratio, and who am I to question her wisdom? So I persist with 1:1. And yes, it is wheat flour. 

Compared to regular pancakes, the surface is a bit different. Difficult to describe, but I would say a bit more crusty. I have also see recipes where more wheat flour is added. 

I would also like to take the opportunity to thank you for the work on this site. It is a great resource, I have used your recipes more than once and I point my students to it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My sourdough starter (culture? pet? symbiosis? you decide!) is based on a cup of starter that a friend of mine recently gave me. She uses a 1:1 flour to water ratio, and who am I to question her wisdom? So I persist with 1:1. And yes, it is wheat flour. </p>
<p>Compared to regular pancakes, the surface is a bit different. Difficult to describe, but I would say a bit more crusty. I have also see recipes where more wheat flour is added. </p>
<p>I would also like to take the opportunity to thank you for the work on this site. It is a great resource, I have used your recipes more than once and I point my students to it.</p>
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		<title>By: Martin Lersch</title>
		<link>http://blog.khymos.org/2009/05/21/sourdough-work-in-progress-part-i/comment-page-1/#comment-146276</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin Lersch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Jun 2009 19:57:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.khymos.org/?p=1590#comment-146276</guid>
		<description>Walter: That&#039;s a good idea - in fact I also have a plan to make &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Injera&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;injera&lt;/a&gt; soon! I&#039;ve made pancakes with yeast several times, often also using kefir/soured milk - so I can imagine that pancakes with sour dough would be delicious! Just a few questions: what is the hydration of the &quot;sourdough&quot; you use? Do you use a 1:1 ratio of water to flour? I also reckon that you use what flour (or at least not only rye)?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Walter: That&#8217;s a good idea &#8211; in fact I also have a plan to make <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Injera" rel="nofollow">injera</a> soon! I&#8217;ve made pancakes with yeast several times, often also using kefir/soured milk &#8211; so I can imagine that pancakes with sour dough would be delicious! Just a few questions: what is the hydration of the &#8220;sourdough&#8221; you use? Do you use a 1:1 ratio of water to flour? I also reckon that you use what flour (or at least not only rye)?</p>
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